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Transmission and transfer case fluid change?

44K views 43 replies 22 participants last post by  VoidPerception420! 
#1 ·
2016 MDX Sh-AWD Advance/Entertain, 53020 miles

I'm getting transmission and transfer case fluid change done at a Honda dealership. How do I make sure if they were done properly?
I've specified ATF Type 3.1
 
#2 ·
That's a loaded/difficult question...


How do you know 100% it was done properly? I guess you would have to learn how to do the procedure and perform it, yourself. Otherwise you really don't 100% know.



The best you can do, if you don't want to DIY, is to make sure the tech has already done this procedure on a ZF9HP48 equipped Pilot (same transmission as your MDX). If they haven't, I wouldn't be their guinea pig. Make sure the invoice says ATF Type 3.1. Make sure to confirm with the tech that they do NOT use a machine to change the fluid. If possible, watch them perform the procedure (after familiarizing yourself with what the procedure is).
 
#3 ·
Quick answer,,, you Don't! It is a pure leap of faith one must take today which many avoid like the plague for good reason. In this case, you have little choice as you do not have the equipment to perform the transmission oil change.Call around to various dealerships for a price on trans oil change .., You can advise the dealership how you want it done and that you want someone experienced and they will tell you what you want to hear, in the end, they will do it their way! Unless you stand and watch you just won't know. I have heard quotes of 160.00- 350.00 for just trans oil changes. so ask around. The transfer case you can do yourself for the cost of oil and a quart bottle pump and 20 mins time. undo a drain and fill hole plug is all , drain put in drain bolt and fill through fill hole until fluid trickles out, replace fill bolt.(under $35.00). can't wait to hear what the dealership is going to charge for this one procedure?
 
#4 ·
I have heard quotes of 160.00- 350.00 for just trans oil changes. so ask around.
If any shop quotes $160 for a ZF9HP48 transmission fluid change, then RUN AWAY. They are not using the correct fluid, and probably do not have experience servicing this transmission.



The ZF9HP48 drains approximately 3.5 US Quarts of fluid... Plus you must intentionally over-fill this transmission and allow it to drain down to the proper level, so you'd need to buy at least 4 US Quarts of fluid -- even if you're careful not to waste it.


MSRP on Acura ATF Type 3.1 is $48.52 per US Quart. So you're looking at nearly $200 JUST IN FLUID COSTS, before tax. Plus you need to replace both drain and fill plug bolts (if you're going to do the procedure, properly). That's another $40-70 in parts. Then you need to factor in labor costs. I would expect a shop to charge between $375 - 475.
 
#6 ·
DIY. Problem solved.


This is not a new thing. Dealer service departments have been "profit centers" for a looooong time.
 
#7 ·
My understanding is that the equipment needed is overly expensive? If this is not the case i and others would like the DIY procedure for these transmissions that is safe and reliable that we can perform ourselves? A list of equipment and detailed procedure appreciated.
 
#8 ·
It is my intention to DIY the fluid change on my ZF9HP48 and to build a step-by-step guide, with pictures. However, I'm only at ~15k miles, and I don't plan on changing the fluid until 30k... So I've got about another year or 18 months to go.

Here's a brief synopsis:

Parts/tools requires:

  1. Standard hand tools (sockets + wrench)
  2. Device for reading transmission temperature from the CAN BUS
  3. New drain plug (MSRP $26.19, can be found for ~$20)
  4. New fill plug (MSRP $26.19, can be found for ~$20)
  5. 4x US Quarts Acura ATF Type 3.1 (MSRP $48.52 each, can be found for ~$36)
For #2, there are several approaches to reading the transmission temperature from the CAN BUS:

  • Acura has HDS (Honda Diagnostic System). I won't go into much detail about it, but it is possible to buy the necessary computer interface and download the software to replicate HDS.
  • Use a third-party scanner with CAN BUS support. There are many on the market, by companies such as Autel, Launch, Bosch/OTC Evolve, Snap-On, etc. These typically range in price from $700 up to $4500. They're expensive, but they are powerful. If you're a serious DIYer, you may want something like this for more than just transmission fluid changes.
  • Use a ScanGauge II. It's available at local auto parts stores, as well as online. MSRP $169.95.
So if you don't already have a device to satisfy requirement #2, then the ScanGauge II is currently the most economical option, imo.


$144 - Acura ATF Type 3.1
$40 - Drain/fill plugs
$170 - ScanGauge II
======
$354 DIY cost, first time. (cheaper than paying a dealer + you know it's done carefully)
$184 DIY cost, subsequent times. (much cheaper than paying a dealer!)

If you decide you don't like the ScanGauge after you change your transmission fluid, I suppose you could return it and get that money back. I don't condone that sort of thing... But hey... Options.

The procedure for changing the transmission fluid is:

  1. Lift vehicle and place on jack stands so all 4 wheel are off the ground.
  2. Remove drain plug from bottom of transmission housing and drain all fluid (approximately 3.5 US Quarts).
  3. Install NEW drain plug.
  4. Remove the level-check/fill plug from side of transmission housing.
  5. Refill transmission with Acura ATF Type 3.1 through the level-check/fill plug until the ATF overflows. (Approximately 3.5 US Quarts).
  6. Temporarily install the OLD level-check/fill plug.
  7. Turn the vehicle ignition ON without starting engine.
  8. Enter VSA maintenance mode* (See description, below, for that procedure)
  9. Start the engine.
  10. Shift transmission to D position, then select Sport in IDS
  11. Run the vehicle through gears 1, 2, 3, and 4 for at least 10 seconds, each. Slow down, and stop the wheels. (DO NOT GO PAST 4TH GEAR WITH WHEELS OFF THE GROUND)
  12. Shift transmission to P position.
  13. Raise engine speed to 2,000 RPM for a few seconds
  14. Run the engine at idle speed until ATF temperature reaches 104 degrees F
  15. Remove the level-check/fill plug to assess fluid level. If ATF is pouring out, wait until the ATF starts dripping from the hole. If there is no ATF coming out, add ATF through the hole until it overflows, then wait until the ATF starts dripping.
  16. Install NEW level-check/fill plug.
  17. Turn engine off
How to enter VSA Maintenance Mode: These steps must be completed within 30 seconds:

  1. Vehicle ignition must be ON, engine OFF.
  2. Release parking brake, and hold down the brake pedal.
  3. While holding down the brake pedal, press and hold the VSA OFF switch (traction control). When the VSA OFF indicator turns on, press and hold the VSA OFF switch again until the VSA OFF indicator goes off.
  4. Release the brake pedal and apply the parking brake.
  5. While the brake pedal is released, press and hold the VSA OFF switch. When the VSA OFF indicator turns on, press and hold the VSA OFF switch again until the VSA OFF indicator goes off.
  6. Hold down the brake pedal while applying the parking brake.
  7. Press and hold the VSA OFF switch while both brakes are applied. When the VSA indicator turns on, press and hold the VSA OFF switch again until the VSA OFF indicator flashes and the VSA indicator turns on.
  8. While the VSA OFF indicator is flashing, you are in VSA Maintenance Mode.
 
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#9 ·
How do I make sure if they were done properly?
Unless you stand there and watch the person do all the changes you won't know for certain. If your trans has a dipstick you could use it to check the fluid before and after to at least see if you notice a change to a fresh color and that the level is correct, but I thought the 9 speed doesn't have a dipstick so this method is out if that's the case.

You could do it yourself and know for certain exactly what was done but you'd have to know exactly what to do and do it correctly and the 9 speed fluid change is much more complicated than the fluid change for the 6 speed or just about any prior transmission. 'P07...' above outlines the process well.

If you're not going to do it yourself then just make sure you take it to a competent service location to do it - one that has experience with the particular transmission and is ethical and actually does what they say they do. You shouldn't need to specify to a factory trained service location (Acura/Honda) which fluid type to use. I'm wondering - why are you taking it to a Honda dealer rather than an Acura dealer? Ifs it location or cost? If it was a toss-up I'd go ahead and use the Acura dealer.

I think it's a poor design choice to make a trans fluid change as difficult and costly as it is for some of these newer transmissions and the end result will be more people will just delay doing it (maybe do it at 50K-75K miles rather than 30K for example) or will skip it altogether and not do anything until the trans has failure.
 
#11 ·
I assure you they make more than their share of money! loaners are a write-off for them, pay for them, that is too funny! See all those brand spanking new open floor plan buildings with all the glass that's not because these dealerships are suffering! Oh.. thank you p07r0457 for your great description above.
 
#15 ·
If you DIY....be sure and loosen the “fill” bolt before you drain...if you can’t get the fill bolt out, at least you haven’t drained fluid with no way to replace it.
 
#16 ·
@p07r0457: Thanks for that - it matches what I have read, except that I thought that there were 3 plugs: fill, drain, and level-check. Could you check that?

I believe that it is possible for other OBD2 devices/apps to read the ATF temp. It requires programming the proprietary code. I had collected the data to do it but accidentally lost it. I'm too busy right now to pursue it but I will follow up in the fall.

The biggest problem with DIY ATF changes for the 9-speed is the risk to the warranty. IIRC I received a letter extending the warranty as a result of the fluid interchange in some warmers (heat exchangers). I wouldn't want to provide an excuse to deny coverage.

Chrysler has a different procedure for their 9-speed ZFs: they use an aftermarket dip stick, measure the height and temp, then look up in a table the desired height for that temp and adjust. This may not work for us as they may be using a different ATF. But the important point is that getting the right quantity for the temp is critical, and is not just a matter of filling to a dipstick level.

I started out wanting to stick with the dealer for all service during the warranty period. Then they screwed me. Now it is DIY and an independent mechanic. But even he won't touch this transmission. So as I near 30k I am cringing...
 
#17 ·
@p07r0457: Thanks for that - it matches what I have read, except that I thought that there were 3 plugs: fill, drain, and level-check. Could you check that?
The parts fiche does show 3 plugs. However, the official procedure in Tech Info mentions only the drain and level check plugs. It states that the transmission should be filled through the level plug.


I assume the 3rd plug exists for other manufacturers -- such as Chrysler -- who may use a graduated dip stick.


I believe that it is possible for other OBD2 devices/apps to read the ATF temp. It requires programming the proprietary code. I had collected the data to do it but accidentally lost it. I'm too busy right now to pursue it but I will follow up in the fall.
It is my understanding that the transmission temperature information is published on the CAN BUS. I'm not aware of any free/cheap software to read it. The Scan Gauge II is the cheapest "easy" option that I have found. It has been my intention to attempt building my own reader, specifically for Honda/Acura transmission temperature... But I haven't gotten around to it, yet.


The biggest problem with DIY ATF changes for the 9-speed is the risk to the warranty. IIRC I received a letter extending the warranty as a result of the fluid interchange in some warmers (heat exchangers). I wouldn't want to provide an excuse to deny coverage.
Ultimately, it is up to each owner to decide how they want to service their vehicle. Personally, I feel that I am less likely to cause a failure than a shop, so I'll be doing the procedure, myself. My VIN is not included in the ATF warmer recall, and I did not receive an extended warranty. I suggest you read the letter carefully... It is my understanding that the extended warranty is extremely limited -- only providing coverage if the ATF warmer fails. In other words, the warranty is not extended for any other failure.


Chrysler has a different procedure for their 9-speed ZFs: they use an aftermarket dip stick, measure the height and temp, then look up in a table the desired height for that temp and adjust. This may not work for us as they may be using a different ATF. But the important point is that getting the right quantity for the temp is critical, and is not just a matter of filling to a dipstick level.
Chrysler is an odd case. Some of their vehicles (primary V6 applications) use a ZF9HP48, manufactured by ZF. However, most of their vehicles (primarily L4 applications) use the 948TE, which is mostly a ZF9, but with some changes, manufactured by Chrysler, directly. Many parts interchange, but some do not.


But yes, regardless of transmission model, even Chrysler is adamant that fluid level changes with fluid temperature.


I started out wanting to stick with the dealer for all service during the warranty period. Then they screwed me. Now it is DIY and an independent mechanic. But even he won't touch this transmission. So as I near 30k I am cringing...
It honestly doesn't seem like a terrible procedure, to me. I think the community will warm up to the idea once we build a photo-walk-through and a few of us have success with the procedure.


Tons of people DIY the timing belt -- and that is considerably more time consuming and difficult.
 
#19 ·
At least provisionally I will assume that this is a one-off. Honda/Acura have manufactured their own transmissions for years, and I think I read that they are working on a 10-speed. Clearly this ZF transmission has specific requirements, but I won't assume anything about future Honda transmissions. Let's hope the 10-speed doesn't require such precision filling, and provides a dip stick. Even if this becomes a standard for Honda it isn't that big a deal compared to the total cost of ownership - certainly not enough on its own to rule out future MDX purchases. YMMV
 
#22 ·
I've done a fair share of transmission fluid changes on German cars (ZF trannies included) and the general procedure is: fill plug off, drain plug off, drain fluid, drain plug in, fill new fluid till it spills, start the car with the fill plug off, bring the temperature to specification, go trough P-R-N-D (10 sec each) wait until fluid is down to dripping, fill plug in, done! I use a VW/Audi specific tool to read parameters and program features (which also reads ATF temp), others who don't have or want to buy the tool used infrared readers to read trans temp (can be had on Amazon for $20-$30) and had no problems. I haven't looked into the Honda/Acura official procedure yet so can't comment on how legitimate the procedure described here is, but I say it should not be much if any different from what Germans are recommending. If this is your first ever change and you don't wan to overcomplicate things, you can measure/weigh how much fluid comes out and fill exactly the same amount. I usually do that anyway as an extra step just to make sure.
 
#20 ·
The fear right now is of the unknown as there is nothing available as you have suggested of pics with procedures showing what is actually involved .The actual wrenching isnt the issue as much as getting acurate readings of the trans temperture. You have mentioned scan gauge 2 at $169.00 is it reliable and capable of reading acuratley the trans temp. The launch Creader Vii+is potentially another candidate $169.00 price , but I have not used it either so I am unfamiliar. Yes the level 3 scanners would be nice $800-4000.00 but is too costly for alot of diy individuals. I would presume that we might see more lower cost scan tools available for just this purpose in the not so distant future.
 
#21 ·
It's on my TODO list to see if I can build an inexpensive single-purpose tool to read the transmission temperature.

I've seen nothing to indicate that the Scan Gauge II is not accurate. Much like more expensive scan tools, it only has to read messages off of the CAN BUS and display the data. It's not rocket surgery. It certainly isn't proprietary.

When I do my transmission fluid change, I'd like to have a few different options available that I can use and take pictures of, to provide evidence of what works.
 
#24 ·
What would be great info to have is if someone that has the appropriate scan tool check properly get to the pre-condition range on the fluid and then use an infrared reader to capture the delta so the DIY’ers have a range to work with.

In the Webber video we know it’s off by 40 degrees so if we have the same infrared reader we know to get it up to 99/100.

Which what I suspect happens at shops today.
 
#25 ·
You assume it’s consistent... but my understanding is that the infrared guns are neither accurate nor consistent on reflective surfaces like an oil pan.

You can exhaust a lot of effort to try to ghetto rig a procedure with the potential for an expensive mistake... why? Just follow the real procedure!
 
#33 ·
So, i did it last week. transfer case, rear diff, and zf9 transmission oil change.

the transmission oil is as simple as drain fill, (install new bolts (3pcs)) and do the above procedure, and raise the temp to 104f / 40c. then check fluid level (make sure engine is still running or at idle when you check the fluid at the side hole, not with the engine turned off) turning off the engine will drain the torque converter, and you’re measuring/draining more fluid than the specified level for the tranny fluid, it has to be spinning (the torque converter).

used hds to get the transmission oil temperature. got it to stay at 104F/40C while checking fluid level.

i have access to a chrysler pacifica (similar transmission zf9) the pacifica has trans temp on the mid of the dash, acura doesn’t show it on dash info. just some info from what i’ve seen on other manufacturers with zf9, i guess there will be more diy-ers for pacifica than cars without transmission temp info on dash...
 
#34 ·
I had the B16 Maintenance Minder pop up last week with about 42,000 miles on my 2016. In addition to oil/filter and rear differential, I decided to go ahead and do the transfer case and ZF9 transmission. I had already bought the ATF 3.1 fluid and replacement drain/fill/level plugs.

I made sure the vehicle was level when jacking up to get all 4 wheels off the ground. I followed the service manual procedure as outlined in this forum but also weighed all the old fluid I drained out. I then put the same amount of fluid back in (about 3.7 qts). I just filled through the upper fill plug as it would be a pain to add through the side level plug. I then entered VSA maintenance mode, cycled through gears 1-4 and followed the procedure to get fluid temperature to 104 degrees then removed the level plug. 6.2oz drained back out (the factory fluid level was overfilled by this amount). 3.5 qts would likely have been within an ounce of the final correct fill level. There is a notable improvement in the shift quality following changing of fluid. I’m not sure if that is due to the new fluid or it being slightly overfilled prior.
 
#35 ·
how is it possible that ZF overfilled it by 6oz? if that's true, it shows that the level doesn't matter that much. I plan to do mine soon, but only put in the exact amount that it drain out. I don't see the need to measure the temp if the new and old oil are at the same temp.
 
#36 ·
It's extremely hard to believe, given the laborious process of getting the fluid level correct, that the recommended procedure is followed for the factory fill. They HAVE to be simply following a specific fluid capacity spec. 6.2 oz is only about 1/5 of a quart so not much really. Surely measuring what came out, making sure your catch container is completely empty, would be sufficient. The trick is making sure you are always dead on as multiple drain and fills could easily result in migrating too far in one direction or the other.
 
#37 ·
There is a very good reason that the engineers require the current procedure for fluid replacement. For one, VERY small differences in level result in a very different driving experience. While they probably know the precise amount of cold fluid to use in a VIRGIN system at manufacture, the situation changes greatly in a re-fill/replace sequence. Wander from the prescribed approach at your own peril.

...I know this because of what I have been through with mine.
 
#38 ·
I can’t speak for the MDX, but I had a BMW that had the same sort of refill procedure. I remember being told by a service advisor about how imporant this was. Actually, he told me to not touch the fluid as it was lifetime, but in the event that something happened and it had to be replaced there was this extensive procedure that involved precison. Then things got more bizarre when I learned that BMW considered Dextron to be a lifetime fluid (what?!). When I found this out, I started dropping the fluid at every 30K miles, and I did it the old fashioned way without all of the precison monitoring and whatnot. And when I sold the car at 260K miles the tranny was absolutely fine.

So I always wondered why they have these strange procedures, and if they are really necessary. And I still don’t know.

You would think that if you measure what comes out and put that amount back there would be no problem. That said, I think that I would be far less adventurous with a low miles MDX and would try to follow the Acura procedure. There must be something to it - what it is I cannot say, it remains a mystery to me.
 
#39 ·
Agreed. What I do know is my fluid level was "checked and topped off" subsequent to shift deterioration not too long after the cooler was removed (the dreaded clunk). After it was returned there was still a very hard bang around the 4>5 upshift on spirited acceleration only. I took it back and said to please keep it until they could figure it out and fix it. Before replacing the tranny they put their best guy on it and emptied, flushed and REPLACED the fluid as a last resort. They also set the tranny to re-learn. Well, when it came back after this it shifted like the 2019 loaner I had been in which was light years ahead of where my 2017 was. Not sure if was the precision flush and re-fill or what, but it sure made a difference!
 
#40 ·
I am about to tackle this, but wanted to verify a couple things. Is this the part number for the drain/fill plugs 06237-5J4-000 (number 3)?

Lastly, silly question, is the transfer case built into the transmission, so doing one services the other? :)

On the Trans temp part, I bought a cheap bluetooth OBDII controller off of Amazon and then Torque Pro app for my android phone, and it picks up the trans temp perfectly all for under $30.
 
#41 · (Edited)
06237-5J4-000 is the right part #, you need 3 of those to do ATF fluid replace.

for transfer case, it is near the transmission but it is different box, you need use
Acura HGO-1, according to spec, it needs 0.45qt. This is the part number. 08200-9014A one qt. The part number for the drain and fill washers. 94109-20000 A quantity of 2

Thank you everyone for post the transmission fluid change information in the forum. I have 2016 with this 9 speed ZF tranny and just had a A 136 minder pop up at 51K miles. I just finished diy the first transmission fluid change. I end up found one old Andro phone and use Torque Pro to read ATF temp, I believe it is the lowest cost compare to using other scan tool. I noticed the transmission temperature move up to 104 fairly quick, so need to connect the OBD tool before you start the engine.
When I drain the transmission fluid, I found total fluid drain out is almost 4.3qt. it looks like when the dealer install transmission cooler, they add too much fluid. I also noticed the shift quality actually improved after I did the transmission fluid change myself.
By the way, I found the lowest cost for these A 136 required parts/fluid is the Majesty Honda, anyone plan to diy might want to check it out also.
 
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