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I love it!

I hope I live long enough to have the EV -vs- flying vehicle debate or EV -vs- Star Trek transporters.
 
We got '22 MDX at the end of last year and our preorder for Model Y materialized (by surprise) in May.

Very different cars. I like both for totally different reasons. I don't think there is any single same thing that I like about both of them.

I guess we're living the future already...
 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
NO and No. EV is a joke right now. We don't even have a power grid to support everything on the road to charge, and on a trip to have to wait 2-3 hours to charge with a super charger no thanks.
I have started a thread about Whether There is an EV In Your Future in the General Discussion portion of this Forum . The comments are very interesting and fascinating as well. Most people never bring up the fact that we don't have the Electric power for all the EVs planned (or "being shoved down our collective throats"). What EV is planned for apartment dwellers? They can't run electrical extension cords from the basements of buildings or their apartments?; What EVs will Plow the Snow, Pave the Roads, Fix the roads, Tow broken down cars, Farm the Land, Fly Jetliners, Make Space Flights (Mr. Bezos, Mr. Musk?), manufacture Lithium Batteries, Mine the Lithium [they don't use EVs for mining to my knowledge] and On and On... There is Much more to be considered here. I agree that we should be seeking and adding all alternative sources of energy for obvious benefits, but at a logical pace with complete examination of the consequences. Look at what is happening in Sri Lanka, Ghana, and now Germany (Wait, not enough LNG to provide heat this winter?? ). Germany has reawakened and is now going to re-open old Coal Plants !! But you won't see that on CNN.
The amount of Electricity to meet the needs of Electric Hungry populace (ever growing daily - see the Sothern border debacle), is almost incalculable.
 
I have started a thread about Whether There is an EV In Your Future in the General Discussion portion of this Forum . The comments are very interesting and fascinating as well. Most people never bring up the fact that we don't have the Electric power for all the EVs planned (or "being shoved down our collective throats"). What EV is planned for apartment dwellers? They can't run electrical extension cords from the basements of buildings or their apartments?; What EVs will Plow the Snow, Pave the Roads, Fix the roads, Tow broken down cars, Farm the Land, Fly Jetliners, Make Space Flights (Mr. Bezos, Mr. Musk?), manufacture Lithium Batteries, Mine the Lithium [they don't use EVs for mining to my knowledge] and On and On... There is Much more to be considered here. I agree that we should be seeking and adding all alternative sources of energy for obvious benefits, but at a logical pace with complete examination of the consequences. Look at what is happening in Sri Lanka, Ghana, and now Germany (Wait, not enough LNG to provide heat this winter?? ). Germany has reawakened and is now going to re-open old Coal Plants !! But you won't see that on CNN.
The amount of Electricity to meet the needs of Electric Hungry populace (ever growing daily - see the Sothern border debacle), is almost incalculable.
Honestly ev is not the answer. Hydrogen would be a much better alternative by using ammonia going into the gas tank, and the car converts it back into hydrogen. We already have gas stations. Remove the 89 octane gas, use that tank for ammonia. Gas stations can sell 87,91 (CA is 91) and Diesel. On avg gas station will fill 2k cars a day. No way be able to charge that many vehicles. Trust me they're going to charge a ton of money for super charging. Super charging runs at 460 volts. No way a gas station can have that many chargers running at that current with our current power grids. For ev to run efficient like gas/diesel. Your talking 50 years or more to convert everything. Why does the media not talk about the child slave labor of mining the materials for these batteries in Africa? Remember blood diamonds? China labor honestly is no different. Trump was trying to make a difference in bringing labor back to the US and stop relying on China. The liberals attacked him and still are. He's man with balls and guts. Our current president is nothing more than a puppet that Jeff Dunham uses in comedy
 
The correct answer is "D - all of the above" because we need options that fit our needs. That can be good old gas/diesel, hybrid, plug-in hybrid, hydrogen fuel cell, and BEV. I don't care if is powered by solar, coal, natural gas, hydro, nuclear, etc...because +320 days of solar or wind in southwest can help offset natural gas in the northeast. The BEV development world is around the same level of as the Model T in the early 1900s. Before the Model T, roads, infrastructure, fuel, and repairs was few and far between and very expensive. We are close to have a "Model T" breakthrough in the next 10-20 years that will make hybrids, plug-in, BEV affordable and available just like ICE is today. We can nick-pick BEVs just like they did when first ICE vehicles hit the road in the late 1800s/early 1900s. BEV may not be the final answer; but, they are a move in the right direction.

I don't know what the future will be like. I just know we can't move into this new future by always stepping backwards
 
Discussion starter · #51 ·
"It's NOT Nice To Fool Mother Nature".....the words of a Magarine commercial more than 30 years ago (I Can't Believe It's Not Butter). Yes, we should actively seek alternative energy sources, But certainly not at ONCE. Chip away at it with Common Sense. Could you imagine if all cars were EVs... where are you going to get the electricity ??
 
Seems like the limiting factor for EVs is energy storage with current battery tech. Current EV battery tech are "too" something:
  • too large
  • too heavy
  • too little range
  • range and performance issues when it is too hot or too cold
  • stores too little energy per weight compared to fossil fuels
  • take too long to charge
  • EV infrastructure support is too small
  • too expensive
  • causes too much environmental damage compared to fossil fuels

Probably the similar arguments with vehicles with lack of fuel, infrastructure, roads, cost, environmental damage, and maintenance/parts support +120 years ago.

No one complains about the hp/tq of EV motors and that is the main advantage and the heart of a BEV/hybrid. The real race is delivering power to those EV motors with hybrid powertrains (fuel cells, gas, diesel), induction like Mag-lev trains, over-the-air/wireless electricity X-fer, or improved battery storage power. Along the way, EV motors will eventually become more powerful, lighter, efficient, and use less power as the technology improves.
 
Discussion starter · #53 ·
mrgoldg35, I'm with you for improving technologies. That should never stop. Albeit, I liked Reagan as POTUS, notwithstanding that like....he made a grave error when he ordered the stop on alternative energy (at that time Solar Cells). It set us back some time in that regard. But I'm a suspicious Type person, so when I see this RUSH to something like ..... We must be EV by 2035 !!, etc... I am suspicious of the Money Trail. If you dig into it, you will find many characters on that Trail. Remember the $500 Million "loan" grated to the Solar Cell company (fogot the name), which ened up as a failure in Bankruptcy. When the President , CEO, and Chairman appeared before congress asking where is the $$$$$$, they shrugged tgheir shoulders nd pleased the 5th Amendment - Total Farce.
For now, I will wait for my EV. I have posted elsewhere, that You have the ideal Vehicle for the NOW. a Sport Hybrid. The car makers are abandoning that, going Full Tilt into EVs, or Plug in Hybrids. Why not just enhance the car you have.....make more advances in a Gas/ non Plug in electric Hybrid? More HP / TQ , better MPGs, less pollution, and no Full body length Lithium Batteries that have the potential to "Cook" you as you sit on them in traffic 2-3 hours a day. We do not make the Lithium batteries here !! We do not make the majority of Solar Cells here !! They are made in China, but they open new coal burning plants weekly.
 
Discussion starter · #54 ·
After viewing pics of the ravages in Florida from Ian, whereby, the pics showed how certain EV Charging Station Lots (yes, there are parking Charging Lots ) were partially under water. So, if you lived in that area, you have no where to go to charge your pure EV, with the total loss of Electric Power Yes, you could same the same for Flooded gas stations and no electric, and notwithstanding, that if you owned an ICE car or an EV car, that those folks should have "topped" their gas tanks or their Lithium Battery powered EV, and that your car whatever it is was not totally submerged into the flood waters, with an ICE or even a Plug In Hybrid could drive to an area that still may have had gasoline.
But a very serious consequence cited by Florida's CFO (yes, Florida has an individula with that Title, responsible under the Fantastic Governor DeSantis), is that Dozens of EVs (not just Teslas), had their batteries catch fire. According to him (speaking on a NY local Talk Radio show this week), it takes over an Hour of constant watering by firemen to put the fire ouit!! For sure, Salt Sea water is not good for all vehicles, but mine would not Burn incessantly for Hours to insure the batteries don't explode. He cited at least 2 cases, where an EV was in house garages, that flooded, igniting the batteries and Burning the house down; the Evs were not On, just parked in the garages. To my knowledge, if an ICE car was submerged or partially submerged in water - Salty Sea water with Chlorine is chemically potent ignition factor with EV's Lithium batteries - it would not catch fire. I guess that the EV makers have not tested the batteries under these conditions getting expopsed to Chlorine, the chemical reaction of a destructive and almost impossible ability to stop the burning, with the potential to explode.
The Climate Crazies, don't have answers for this environmental & hazardous event. All the recovery measures that the Governor is employing involves vehicles of all types (Cranes,Bulldozers, Tow Trucks, Boats, Helicopters, etc..) all use Gasoline / Diesel Fuels. The use of EVs have a long way to Go.
I would like to just "Tip my Hat" to Governor DeSantis for his masterful leadership, management & Take Charge skills exurted to combat the aftermath of Ian. He is as good or better than Mayor Guiliani at the time NYC was attacked on 9-11.
 
I found this article provided insight into the practical aspects of owning an electric vehicle right now if you're not just driving it locally:

The EV 1000: 11 EVs Face Off in a Long-Distance Race (Car and Driver)
Everyone should read this article. The range at 60-70 mph is startlingly low and the driver's weren't using A/C and running as many accessories as they could off their own independent battery power. Then when they got to charges, many didn't work or charged at much slower rates. Some of them took ubers to go get food while the cars charged. So IMO, the safe range based on this article for real world highway driving, if you want to enjoy the luxuries of your vehicle, is likely below 200 miles. So every 200 miles you're adding a minimum of 45 minutes to your trip.

I can add my 2c who once owned 2 MDX including 2019 Sports hybrid.
2017 Prius Prime plug-in with 25-35 miles range.
Finally Mustang Mach-e.
Mustang is BEV. 210 miles range in summer and with fast charge 20% to 80% in 40 minutes more than covers our needs.
if you don’t need 3 rows it’s an excellent small SUV.
Its also not about money only, though with high gas prices it’s great not to visit gas station .
Fun of driving Mustang and electronics are far better than what I had in 19 MDX.
If electric SUV had 400-500 miles range there would be very little need for ICE.
Not having an engine has big maintenance benefit, no oil change or emissions etc.
Within 5 years balance will flip with more charging stations being installed, particularly major cities.
It's not just a matter of charging stations. It's the fact that it still takes 30 minutes to 2 hours to charge the car at a supercharger. And right now there is no SUV or Truck that will really even get 300 miles with normal use. Under real world conditions, most electric vehicles are looking at less than 200 miles. Which is fine for a normal commuter car you charge at your home but terrible if you want to even venture a few hours away.

I went on a couple 4 hours trips this week. An electric car would have added a ton of time to my trips. That is what is turning me away from the new Acura EV and towards a new MDX.

Can we address the myth that hybrids and EVs are better for the environment? How much fossil fuel is burned to mine the material to make the batteries? What percentage of EVs are charged by fossil fuel electric plants? What is the environmental impact of battery/car disposal when recycling isn’t an option? What would he true cost of purchase and charging were it not for heavy tax payer funded subsidies? If not for the artificial inflation of gasoline prices how much less enthusiastic would hybrid and EV buyers be? I am in no way saying we shouldn’t be working on EV solutions, but at the moment and who knows how far into the future we are nowhere near a real economical solution and we will need a per mile charge or tax on electric to replace the gasoline tax that currently funds infrastructure creation and repair. Even at $6 gas if the true cost of hybrids and EVs were delivered to the users the sales rate would be far less than what it is.
California already tacks on a fee for EVs. $100 per year with their registration (which btw, is more than I pay for both my cars where I live). They're saying that fee is going to increase. And CA is testing a mileage tax (which they claim would replace the gas tax but call me skeptical that it wont be tacked on). In the car and driver article linked above, they didn't save much money. The supercharges cost less than gas...maybe as much as 50%. So gas driver is paying $200 and EV is paying $100 for a supercharger and spending 30 -120 minutes at a charger.

EVs are great for local air quality and noise pollution (since they're much quieter). They're useful as commuter vehicles when they can be charged at home with cheaper electricity. After that they lose much of their advantages.

I would offer the maintenance costs of EVs are also underestimated since nobody looks at cars owned for 15+ years. Can you imagine what the cost of repairs in an EV that's 20 years old?

But I think the answer is that all of us will eventually be forced to buy an EV whether we want to or not.
 
Discussion starter · #56 ·
agogley, Great points. Yes, it is getting easier and easier to BASH EVs. As the Tide Turns (relating to the horrific conditions in SW Florida - those poor people), more is being revealed of the very REAL shortcomings of EVs. The article you cite is spot on for real actual users. A car Reviewer team (husband and wife) from Canada stated some months ago that 20% of regsitered owners of EVs in CA , returned to either a Hybrid or an ICE car in 2021. As stated at Nauseam here, EVs probably can be used as local, nearby commuters but not for longer trips due to the issues of charging, and so much more. I cited the batteries /cars catching fire after being soaked in Salt Water and the extreme difficulties the Fire Dept had putting the fires out, I call your attention to the November 2021 (or 2020?) flash Ice storm that occurred on I-95 in VA. The people were stuck in their cars , freezing, for over 24 hours !! I don't thing I would want to be in an EV for that long, sitting on those infectious Lithium battery (according to Electro-Magnetic Engineers... not highly recommended) and watching the batteries drain quickly while the heat is on!
Californians are over-reactive and present themselves as a little "nuts" (Not all, but they tend to lead the charge for EVs , Jay Leno included). Where do They Think all this necessary Electricity is going to come from? The air? They suffered EV charging curtailments due to lack of Electricity ! You need fossil fuels to generate it !! Yes, alternate energy sources should be pursued ....little by little... Wind, Solar, even Nuclear[again] , Gas /Electric Hybrid cars & Trucks, and some EV vehicles.
Mother Nature may prove to be a big Obstacle and a Challenge to EVs. Ian provbes that !
 
I hear A LOT of complaining; but, limited pathways for compromise and solutions. I don't live in California and never will. The great thing about Cali going EV is they can be a test bed for the rest of the country as they work out the bugs for the other 49 states. Pretty much every environmental and power infrastructure issue can be found in that state (extreme heat/cold, snow, rain, long travel distances, congestion, lacking power grid, etc...).

We can't rely on solely on fossil fuels forever. The technology and infrastructure isn't there for the immediate move to BEVs. I see it no differently than decades ago when infrastructure and technology wasn't there for cable TV, internet, Wi-Fi, GPS, or cell phones.

This is the direction the entire world is moving towards by 2050-2100. You just have to decide how much kicking and screaming you want to do along the journey. I'm pretty sure every issue you are concerned about has several possible solutions someone is trying to implement for the next gen BEVs and future charging stations.
 
For me I see myself as an industry outsider, no experience with batteries nor powerline construction, etc.

Each time I buy a car it will be an independent review of the cost/benefit of available powertrains. At this point the EV tech is clearly not ready for use as a primary family car, only a second commuter car or a second green showoff car. Or for non family drivers who have the extra time that EV ownership requires.

I have nothing against EV's conceptually, I always buy CPO and prefer Acura so don't have to think about EV's until maybe 2027. My expectation is that ICE will be a nobrainer decision then as I predict electric refueling costs will exceed gas costs due to an insufficient power grid, but we'll see. Maybe on par if government subsidizes the battery costs and enough PHEVs are on the road that can switch to gas to alleviate the grid, but that would be a best case for EV sales then.
 
For me I see myself as an industry outsider, no experience with batteries nor powerline construction, etc.

Each time I buy a car it will be an independent review of the cost/benefit of available powertrains. At this point the EV tech is clearly not ready for use as a primary family car, only a second commuter car or a second green showoff car. Or for non family drivers who have the extra time that EV ownership requires.

I have nothing against EV's conceptually, I always buy CPO and prefer Acura so don't have to think about EV's until maybe 2027. My expectation is that ICE will be a nobrainer decision then as I predict electric refueling costs will exceed gas costs due to an insufficient power grid, but we'll see. Maybe on par if government subsidizes the battery costs and enough PHEVs are on the road that can switch to gas to alleviate the grid, but that would be a best case for EV sales then.
I kinda see EVs now like any tech for early adopters. It is going to take decades to work out the "bugs" for the general public acceptance. No way my newly graduated son from college could afford a BEV now at their current prices. I see it as my job to support and invest into the technology and push improvements because I have the time, lifestyle, and money to do so. Just like I did in the late 80s with my old pre-286 computer with monochrome screen, no internet, 20mb of hard-disk space, and dot matrix printer. I can see my son purchasing a BEV in +2030 for ICE avg price now, charging at home/work/businesses, and having options for traveling with a nationwide charging network.

I don't see ICE in all forms going away in my lifetime (56 now). I can see gas prices being $10 a gallon or more minimal by +2030.
 
I hear A LOT of complaining; but, limited pathways for compromise and solutions. I don't live in California and never will. The great thing about Cali going EV is they can be a test bed for the rest of the country as they work out the bugs for the other 49 states. Pretty much every environmental and power infrastructure issue can be found in that state (extreme heat/cold, snow, rain, long travel distances, congestion, lacking power grid, etc...).
I'm not one to say never. I've lived too long to know better. What I can say is at this moment of time, I've taken an EV out of consideration because of the drawbacks. I do think there are some real advantages although I don't think charging at home is one of them (it takes 5 minutes to gas a car). I do think there is a real issue with ALL electric after seeing the Ford Lightning. That is an awesome truck. But 150 miles when towing (and presumably when carrying a load)??? And a 12 hour recharge time? That's not practical.

I do think infrastructure for charging is getting better and more available but it remains to be seen how it will hold up when apartment dwellers start having to charge their cars. It's not like a gas station where people fill up in 5 minutes and vacate the pump.

Each time I buy a car it will be an independent review of the cost/benefit of available powertrains. At this point the EV tech is clearly not ready for use as a primary family car, only a second commuter car or a second green showoff car. Or for non family drivers who have the extra time that EV ownership requires.

I have nothing against EV's conceptually, I always buy CPO and prefer Acura so don't have to think about EV's until maybe 2027. My expectation is that ICE will be a nobrainer decision then as I predict electric refueling costs will exceed gas costs due to an insufficient power grid, but we'll see. Maybe on par if government subsidizes the battery costs and enough PHEVs are on the road that can switch to gas to alleviate the grid, but that would be a best case for EV sales then.
In Europe the electric recharging costs are approaching fuel costs. And that's what I expect here. Those who can afford solar will do that but those who can't will pay more for the car and more to charge it.

My other concern with electric cars is that when the electronics go bad, then the vehicles is basically unusable. Tesla isn't exactly known for being reliable either.
 
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