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Drew said:

It is because the MB engineers did do a long term study and tests using the K&N filters and what they found was that the filter did let in more air. HOWEVER, at an expense of larger dirt particles. As a result, this is deterimental to the long term life of the vehicle, and also the reason why the MB engineers do not recommend it.
How could this be?????

I just cannot imagine that Mopar would sell this if it were true.

(Could it be that most other cars don't last long enough to be affected by this failure mode. Could it be that "long term ownership" in America is up to the end of the lease?)

Love to get a reference for the study. Not that that will change anyody's mind....

Ard

PS Dale- "not promoting a product is not the same as disapproving it's use." I guess I'd agree. Unless the reason they are not promoting it is because it does damage according to their tests.

All hypothetical until we see if there really was a test with data.
 

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I use ONLY AFE filters! They produce 2-3 hp OVER K&N filters! We've dyno'd both...and beware of K&N! They may come apart...and your motor will be ingesting air, fuel and filter element ;) Someone posted on ODYCLUB.com forums some time back about K&N filters and the horror stories.

the AFE filters, www.afefilters.com , are surgical grade oiled gauze...not paper! THE finest filters I can buy? :) I think so.
 

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TrickedElement said:
I use ONLY AFE filters! They produce 2-3 hp OVER K&N filters! We've dyno'd both...and beware of K&N! They may come apart...and your motor will be ingesting air, fuel and filter element ;) Someone posted on ODYCLUB.com forums some time back about K&N filters and the horror stories.

the AFE filters, www.afefilters.com , are surgical grade oiled gauze...not paper! THE finest filters I can buy? :) I think so.
Well, that's an interesting tidbit of information. Considering how long K & N has been producing filters there must be a significant number of engines out there at serious risk.
I am not arguing with your testimony but it's kind of like, if someone never signs up on this forum and reads this particular post (or at the ODY club) they are never going to know about it.
I went to the AFE website and it appears they work on the exact same principle as the K & N. Amazing they can have even less obstruction to air flow, and I suppose not pass more particulates or maybe even fewer (?). They have no stock filters available for the MDX, or quite a few cars for that matter.
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TrickedElement said:
I use ONLY AFE filters! They produce 2-3 hp OVER K&N filters! We've dyno'd both...and beware of K&N! They may come apart...and your motor will be ingesting air, fuel and filter element ;) Someone posted on ODYCLUB.com forums some time back about K&N filters and the horror stories.

the AFE filters, www.afefilters.com , are surgical grade oiled gauze...not paper! THE finest filters I can buy? :) I think so.
ok, being a bimmerhead...and having done a number of cone filters...K&N is gauze too, not paper, all those other filters that look like K&N are the same ! just different color oils, usually red, blue or yellow.

the only other type of filter out there are the foam filters, for example, itg filters. they all work the same just different materials, the idea is the oil really does most of the work trapping the dirt. some claim that the foam filters work better but then those would argue maybe thats true but it lets in more dirt cause the foam is more porous.

now i have a question, MDX Crazed setup is shows a very short tube...but Tricked has a fairly long tube running across in a big "L"....since you have so much surface area exposed in the engine bay and no shielding, are you running into any heat issues ? the tubing itself getting real hot basically heating the air up as it runs through the filter. also how is airflow impacted by the "L" ? usually tubes are as straight as they can be without bends to maximize airflow. some bends for fitment.

i'm not a honda/acura person, so i'm just curious is this is how its typically done ... thanks

jeff
 

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Well, in my 10 years of messing with Honda's, I'll say first, that designing a proper intake will net HUGE HP gains. AEM and INJEN have the right idea....the bigger is not better. Everything from tube size and "cold air" placement went into designing this tube. I would not have offered it to anyone if the HP gains were not significant....and they are.

as for temps....I WAS going to just do a short intake and keep it in the engine bay. the ODY bay is quite large, and heat really shouldn't be an issue. The longer tube reaching 'cooler' outside air only adds to the HP gains...which was my goal.

The tube is stainless, and heavy guage. AEM for instance uses an aluminum, thin walled tube....they do use smaller diameter, like I do, which adds HP, but I don't like the thinner material.

the polished finish also helps in reflecting heat. I was going to offer a less expensive mild steel, powdercoated version, but that goes against some of the things I was looking for when designing this.....material, power, etc.

I've had several different intakes on my 91 civic over the years, and noticed the larger tubes, not longer, WIDER! DO not produce power like a smaller, sized-to-the throttle body tube. and in Honda/Acura applications, aside from the S2000 or JDM cars, adding aftermarket performance parts, the RIGHT ones, do ALOT for HP gains!
 

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Tricked,

I noticed that you dyno your intake on your older Ody, which has a smaller displacement than the current Ody and MDX. Shouldn't you use a larger pipe to accomadate the larger displacement of the 3.5L? Also what size of AFE filter did you use in your design? I was wondering about the total filter surface area comparing between stock, AFE and the monster K&N that Crazed used.

Also I don't see a reason why Crazed's 3" pipe idea couldn't be extended with a $10 more of PVC pipes and elbows. This way, i get a long 3" ID pipe for fair weather days, and a short one for foul weather days.
 

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Well...seeing as how my ODY has a 3.5 liter...not sure what your talking about :) Sometimes smaller is better..as in this case. small tube lends to faster air flow. I used the same principal in my house...room was cold, put in smaller duct to speed the flow...AHHHHH!! :)

as for the filter....it's quite large. I'll have to measure it.
 

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Well, Tricked, you sure have help to keep this thread alive.

While I agree with you that smaller pipe has higher flow velocity, a larger pipe convey a higher flow volume.

So if given the same amount of air inflow, a smaller pipe will need to be pressurized to deliver a same volume of air,which is a force main design. However, the air intake system is not a close force main, so to effectively convey the same amount of air inflow, a larger pipe will be more efficient.

The 3" pipe selected here is the same diameter as the intake pipe in the stock MDX system, that's why it was an easy fit. Acura must have chosen this size for a reason.

Of course, my home made design is nowhere as nice a your heavy guage stainless steel set up. Metalic pipe is safer to withstand extreme temperature. But they also cost more and are heavier. But that would not stop the enthusiasts or hinder the performance.

So please show us your design and dyno # on a MDX, not a Civic or Odyssey. I do believe that there will be a noticable hp gain. I can feel that on my car already. So if you can convince us, this group here would buy your design in a heart beat. People who drive a MDX are not that poor anyway to have to use my set up. (I might need to reserve that statement until after April 15). It's just that there have been nothing much on the market for MDX so far. I am just having some fun here, but you are doing a sale. So good luck.
 

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ardvarkus said:


How could this be?????

I just cannot imagine that Mopar would sell this if it were true.

(Could it be that most other cars don't last long enough to be affected by this failure mode. Could it be that "long term ownership" in America is up to the end of the lease?)

Love to get a reference for the study. Not that that will change anyody's mind....

Ard

PS Dale- "not promoting a product is not the same as disapproving it's use." I guess I'd agree. Unless the reason they are not promoting it is because it does damage according to their tests.

All hypothetical until we see if there really was a test with data.
Ard, since this was an internal engineering study, I doubt very much that you'll actually see it. The only reason I know about it is because I know someone who works as a special consultant with MB (and has contacts with the engineers) and he mentioned that MB had tested the K&Ns particularly when the G-wagen owners had the same debate. So I would say that it works (the Filtercharger is probably marginal at best for most vehicles), but be aware of the side effects.

You don't see any AMG-tuned or BMW Motorsport engines with K&N filters, I might add. I think that this alone speaks volumes. BTW, I would also add that just about all MB vehicles (and BMWs too, I think) have dual air intakes; so rather one giant intake, there are two medium sized ones. Certainly an interesting approach.

P.S. Good points about long term ownership. :)
 

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The present CEO of Renntech Mercedes used to be the chair of AMG Hammer


Maybe they ousted him for advocating K & N filters?.


http://www.renntechmercedes.com/splash/cars/sclass/sw-140.html



?but they do use them on Apache Helicopters?..

http://integra.vtec.net/air/knconcern.html

You would think after 30 years there would be more concrete evidence of these filters having an adverse effect on engines.
(THAT IS TO SAY, IT WOULDN'T BE HIDDEN IN SOME OBSCURE ENGINEERING PAPER.)

I know Dinan BMW uses them as well as others, and has been doing BMW approved modifications for some time.
Also found quite a few race teams that use K&N, both domestic and foreign.
Ironically, some of K&N's logic on how their filter works may be as faulty as their critics reasoning why it does not.

Like I've always said, you pay your money and make your choices. Does make you wonder how many other products we might use regularly have all this controversy going on and we don't even know about it.
There is a german filter called ITG that is used by a few european race teams, and it is foam that requires oiling.
 

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Well, seeing as how I don't have an MDX handy to run tests on...i'll just have to stick to using the ODY, with the same motor, for my tests. I'll have one of the guys that owns a 2002 ODY try and run it on a dyno...those ARE the EXACT motors you know to the MDX :)
 
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