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Discussion Starter #1
I have been calling a whole bunch of Honda dealers here in the Bay Area but no one has any information on it. We on this newsgroup have far more information on the Pilot than they do.

Apparently there is a Honda 'Show and Ride' next week in SF for dealers that these guys are going to and will have more info then.

A couple of questions for you all knowledgeable people on this forum:

1. How much of an issue is it to buy a model in its first year ?
2. Most dealers are saying that they will be marking up the Pilot anywhere from $1000-$3000 (even before anyone has even seen this vehicle !)

Thanks.
 

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consideringMDX said:
Most dealers are saying that they will be marking up the Pilot anywhere from $1000-$3000 (even before anyone has even seen this vehicle !)
Ah, the plot thickens. Celebrations based upon the very reasonable sticker price of the Pilot may be a bit premature if your local Honda dealer doesn't stick to MSRP. However, if local dealers stuck to MSRP on the Odyssey, I would think they would stick to MSRP on the Pilot. I don't think many would get $3000 over for the EX. Otherwise, why wouldn't somebody just get a base MDX?
 

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Re: Re: Honda Pilot -- No information at dealers

A2MDXer said:
...Celebrations based upon the very reasonable sticker price of the Pilot may be a bit premature if your local Honda dealer doesn't stick to MSRP. However, if local dealers stuck to MSRP on the Odyssey, I would think they would stick to MSRP on the Pilot. I don't think many would get $3000 over for the EX. Otherwise, why wouldn't somebody just get a base MDX?
I'm not so sure...

Consider:

A 'reluctant' "minivan" buyer {i.e. one buying out of neccessity} is far more concerned with price than a "gung-ho" SUV buying for 'Sport'.

SOME dealers did not "holod the line" on Odys, and DID get more than list...

The price gap between SHORT SUPPLY '02 MDXs & '03 Pilots will WIDEN when '03 MDXs come on line.

MANY Honda Store owners also own Acura Stores, and are probably the kind of aholes who play the "forced option" game.

And finally, THERE ARE STUPID PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WILL GO ALONG WITH OVER-MSRP PRICING ON NEW CARS AND DEALERS WILL TAKE A SUCKER FOR EVERY DIME THEY CAN!
 

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Re: Re: Re: Honda Pilot -- No information at dealers

renov8r said:


I'm not so sure...

Consider:

A 'reluctant' "minivan" buyer {i.e. one buying out of neccessity} is far more concerned with price than a "gung-ho" SUV buying for 'Sport'.

SOME dealers did not "holod the line" on Odys, and DID get more than list...

The price gap between SHORT SUPPLY '02 MDXs & '03 Pilots will WIDEN when '03 MDXs come on line.

MANY Honda Store owners also own Acura Stores, and are probably the kind of aholes who play the "forced option" game.

And finally, THERE ARE STUPID PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO WILL GO ALONG WITH OVER-MSRP PRICING ON NEW CARS AND DEALERS WILL TAKE A SUCKER FOR EVERY DIME THEY CAN!
PAYING OVER MSRP IS NOT BEING A SUCKER. SOMETIMES SUPPLY AND DEMAND DETERMINES THE PRICE ON A CAR. ESPECIALLY WHAT PART OF THE COUNTRY YOU ARE IN. EXOTIC CARS ARE OFTEN SOLD AT OVER MSRP BECAUSE THERE IS A LIMITED NUMBER OF CARS MADE. EXAMPLES ARE THE AUDI TT, ZR1 CORVETTE, PT CRUISER, AND MANY EUROPEAN SPORT CARS.
GRAND NATIONAL BUICK REGAL, HURST OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS WERE ALSO SOME. PEOPLE PAID DUE TO LIMITED NUMBER AND AWESOME CARS.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Honda Pilot -- No information at dealers

renov8r said:


I'm not so sure...

Consider:

A 'reluctant' "minivan" buyer {i.e. one buying out of neccessity} is far more concerned with price than a "gung-ho" SUV buying for 'Sport'.
I agree in part. However, if you are not concerned with price you may opt for the MDX. Many people are waiting for the Pilot as a lower cost alternative. Thus, Pilot shoppers may be looking at price more than MDX shoppers. Also, many people feel like the Ody has no substitute and, therefore, pay a higher price. We know that an MDX is almost a perfect substitute for an "overpriced" Pilot. If a Pilot EX is going for $35,000 and I can get an MDX for MSRP at $35,000 I would skip the Pilot.

My original point was that the Ody may provide some insight as to what your local Honda dealer will do. If a person's local dealer held the line at MSRP all along on the Ody's then there is a pretty good chance that the same dealer will hold the line on the Pilot. Conversely, if the local dealer charged more than MSRP for an Ody then the Pilot may get the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Re: Re: Re: Re: Honda Pilot -- No information at dealers

A2MDXer said:


I agree in part. However, if you are not concerned with price you may opt for the MDX. Many people are waiting for the Pilot as a lower cost alternative. Thus, Pilot shoppers may be looking at price more than MDX shoppers. Also, many people feel like the Ody has no substitute and, therefore, pay a higher price. We know that an MDX is almost a perfect substitute for an "overpriced" Pilot. If a Pilot EX is going for $35,000 and I can get an MDX for MSRP at $35,000 I would skip the Pilot.

My original point was that the Ody may provide some insight as to what your local Honda dealer will do. If a person's local dealer held the line at MSRP all along on the Ody's then there is a pretty good chance that the same dealer will hold the line on the Pilot. Conversely, if the local dealer charged more than MSRP for an Ody then the Pilot may get the same.
Exactly my sentiments. Going by that logic I have asked most of the dealers what do they charge for an Ody and most (if not all) have said that they charge over MSRP for the Ody (because of the limited supply). I even mentioned that if you are going to charge $3000 over MSRP on a Pilot, people will quickly redirect their focus on an MDX, to which his response was, "Why, how much does an MDX cost ?". Do these guys do their homework at all ?
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Honda Pilot -- No information at dealers

paul123 said:


PAYING OVER MSRP IS NOT BEING A SUCKER. SOMETIMES SUPPLY AND DEMAND DETERMINES THE PRICE ON A CAR
I agree 100%. MSRP is a somewhat arbitrary $ amount that the manufacturer came up with. I would rather pay based on what I think the car is worth. IMHO, the MDX is worth more than $40k(loaded), especially when u compare it to its rivals. so, i am willing to pay MSRP. The new M3- SMG to me is worth more than $60k, i would be willing to pay above msrp for it. however, the chevy lumina(for eg.) to me is worth a lot less than the msrp. I expect to buy it below invoice!
 

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Whoops! The old MSRP Debate...

This has been well hashed before...

While some folks do pay more than MSRP for "short supply" vehicles from some manufacturers, many folks on the boards have pointed out why they would not.

For some it is emotional. For others, the economics do not make sense. Others stand on principles.

History has shown very, very, very few instances where one could not acquire a vehicle at MSRP.

I do not think MSRP is arbitary, nor do lenders or insurance companies.

If one chooses to pay more than MSRP, especially for a vehicle that I would also be considering buying, I choose to call them a SUCKER.

The "market" for new vehicle is not really "open". The manufacturers do not want this. The dealers do not want this. Buyers do not want this. The transaction of buying a new car is laden with a many costs & benefits. The MSRP includes enough input mechanisms for interested parties on the buyer and seller side to give feedback. This feedback results in price adjusts, up or down. THEY HAPPEN!
Other things can and do happen: cars that fetch close to (or above MSRP) and still sell in a timely manner may have adjustsment in content, so that the average selling price rises. Cars that sell only far below MSRP may have incentives attached to them.

I will except some cars that MAY be produced in limited numbers, but only in limited circumstances. Sorry the M3 doesn't qualify. BMW has stated: "The limited availability is part of the appeal. Buyers want to feel like they're gaining access to an exclusive club. ...these high-octane models cast a halo over their chosen brand ...And that, the auto makers say, translates into more sales throughout the product line." This is from BMW M brand manager Scott Doniger.

Basically they want people to lust after these things. They could accomplish that by asking more than $60K, but that would hose-up the other "aspIRATIONAL" qualities of the rest of the BMW line.

"A fool and his money..."
 

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Re: Whoops! The old MSRP Debate...

renov8r said:

I do not think MSRP is arbitary, nor do lenders or insurance companies.

If one chooses to pay more than MSRP, especially for a vehicle that I would also be considering buying, I choose to call them a SUCKER.

YOU WOULD HAVE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT SUPPLY AND DEMAND TO UNDERSTAND HOW PRICING WORKS. THIS IS ALL RELATED TO ECONOMICS WITH PRICING IN ALL MARKETS NOT JUST AUTOMOBILES. IF YOU ARE A CAR LOVER AND OWN MANY EXOTIC CARS IN LIMITED SUPPLY, I BELIEVE YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THE REASONING OF ABOVE MSRP AND BELOW MSRP. IT IS A VERY SIMPLE BASIC FORMULA DETERMINED BY THE MARKETS AND MANUFACTURER. WE AS CUSTOMERS HAVE NO CONTROL OVER SUPPLY AND DEMAND. IT'S REALLY A ECONIMCS ISSUE.
 

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Re: If consumers don't set demand...

renov8r said:
then who/what does?
CONSUMERS CAN'T CONTROL SUPPLY AND DEMAND TOGETHER !WHICH CREATES PRICING. I'M NOT REFERING TO ONE OR THE OTHER, I'M REFERING TO BOTH TOGETHER! HAVE YOU TAKEN ECONOMICS COURSES AT ALL! IT'S A VERY SIMPLE PROCESS IF YOU UNDERSTAND.

I DON'T WANT TO GO FURTHER ON THIS TOPIC I THINK EVERYONE GETS THE IDEA BEHIND OUR THOUGHTS!
 

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Do we agree?

Consumers do, in fact, set demand.

Manufacturers do, in fact, control supply.

But, unfortunately MSRP does NOT reflect SUPPLY OR DEMAND!

MSRP represents what I believe (from pricing class) most economists would lump into something like "cumulative presentation". The PRIMARY PURPOSE of MSRP is the reflection of the public's perception of a products "perceived value". The inputs to MSRP include things like size,components, technology, competition, positioning and market pressure. Auto marketers, going back at least to Henry Ford, believed the market is largely created by making vehicles available at specific price points that were within the affordability limit of a certain portion of consumers. The ultimate goal of ANY pricing decision is LONG TERM profitability. Companies could, in theory, set prices based soley on demand. Such a pricing practice would call for highly speculative predications, and as such are rarly used with much success.
At the other extereme are so-called "cost-oriented" models. These are the classic "bean counter" methods of adding up ALL the various costs, figuring an acceptable "profit margin" and slapping the numbers on 'em.

In between those tow extremes are the more realistic competition-oriented pricing, and customer-oriented pricing.

In the competition-oriented model, you evalute the price simialr products fetch, and after adjusting for features differences, you set your price.

In customer-oriented pricing (sometimes called "value-factor pricing) the manufacturer determines (usually through focus groups) the 'value' that consumers place on certain product attributes, adds those factors up and sets a price.

Most of this is from my circa-1994 course in Pricing & Market Managament, I kinda think it is valid.
 

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MSRP ++

Should one buy below, at, or above MSRP?

Most newer vehicles depreciate over time [e.g. transportation vehicles are not normally investments, at least good ones!!].

If you were an earlier owner of a Miata or a PT Cruiser, I suspect that you paid MSRP+++. Well, that "extra payola" has served 2 purposes:

(1) It has allowed you to "lose more" on the vehicle [lower pct of purchase price retained over time].

(2) It has allowed you to drive a vehicle SOONER than others who were willing to wait for lower prices.

I am not saying that paying MSRP++ is a bad thing for YOU to do, it is merely a decision.

Mazda sold Miatas at MSRP+++, not any more!!

Chyrsler sold PT Cruisers at MSRP+++, not any more!!

Acrua dealers sold MDXs at MSRP+++, some still do, others now discount [based on postings].

Many Honda dealers will sell the Pilot for AS MUCH AS THEY CAN GET.

Interesting thought: The more Honda dealers charge for the Pilot, the LESS NEGATIVE IMPACT THAT WILL HAVE ON THE MDX RESALE VALUE!!! If the Honda dealers choose to sell at MSRP, we might [IMHO WILL] take a hit!!!!
 
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