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Discussion Starter #1
Although I personally prefer sticking with OEM fluids for vital parts like our sophisticated SH-AWD transmissions when possible, I came across an alternative that I didn't notice before for our AWD transmissions.

Ironically, I found out as I was to replace my GM BMW tranny fluid as the factory Shell fluid can only be bought in certain places an avg $25-30 per liter(requires 9 liters). :surprise:

Figured this can be of help to someone, especially considering the price point, you can easily do a 3x3 drain for under $50.

Now some may argue the technicality and try to compare the MSDS specs between DW-1 and the Havoline. Havoline has been known to have a lower shear rating than some other OEM fluids(not sure about DW-1). However, unless you're towing all the time or going up steep grades, I don't think it should have any noticeable impact on longevity.

https://www.amazon.com/Havoline-226535721-12PK-DEXRON-VI-Multi-Vehicle-Transmission/dp/B00M1Y3KZA

 

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However, unless you're towing all the time or going up steep grades, I don't think it should have any noticeable impact on longevity.
So you really do not know if this is a suitable replacement but you are suggesting it just to save a few bucks?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Read the label genius.
 

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I would not consider any Generic ATF that is suitable for a GM to be used in a Honda.
Completely different specifications for anti slip properties and clutch protection.. DW-1 is not that expensive to be honest so I don´t have the need to search for an alternative.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I would not consider any Generic ATF that is suitable for a GM to be used in a Honda.
Completely different specifications for anti slip properties and clutch protection.. DW-1 is not that expensive to be honest so I don´t have the need to search for an alternative.
Uh, you realize GM makes transmissions for quite a few BMW's, right? Don't really know what you mean by "generic" as most of these companies supplies to OEM's. LOL. You also realize that GM tranmissions for BMW's and such require one of the highest quality transmission fluids to be used because they have a "lifetime fluid" specifications which is way above any Honda/Acura.

I'm just pointing out another alternative for people. All the other "generic" bottles I've encountered do not specifically make a claim that it can be a direct replacement for DW-1. This one happens to. I would think Havoline has enough chemical engineers to have studied/researched the heck out of it's formula's to make that claim in the litigous country we live in today.

I have nothing to gain in this as I already did a full transmission flush last year with Acura's AWD tranny fluid but had I come across this earlier, I would've given this a shot.

I realize some people are gonna stick with OEM and that some are incapable of seeing past the tree's. Same thing for coolants, where you have people that adamantly will stick to Porsche or BMW coolant like bible even though something like Prestone has new formula's compatible with European cars.

I've included a larger pic as the other one is small.

 

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Interesting. Good to see that there is an alternative. What's the difference between "Approved for", "Recommended for", and "Suitable for" as stated on the label?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Interesting. Good to see that there is an alternative. What's the difference between "Approved for", "Recommended for", and "Suitable for" as stated on the label?
You'd have to ask Havoline about that.

My guess:

Approved for = got Manufacturer's approval by some kind of testing/certification

Recommended for = They know it will definitely work with the fluids listed and is compatible(their chemical engineers probably compared MSDS specs)

Suitable for = Somewhat iffy and not 100% sure on all Ford Transmissions

Once again, not trying to ram this down people's throats. Everyone should ultimately do what they're comfortable with. It's just nice for those that don't live by a dealer, or need something right away, etc. It's comforting to have them state this in writing as you know it won't "blow up" your tranny. LOL.
 

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Thanks for this Alpine!
 

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Thanks for sharing. I'm considering the switch but with Honda's (probably dated) reputation for failed Automatic transmissions, I'm on the fence with switching. We had a 2001 TL that went through 2 transmissions. That said, I haven't come across anyone that had a 5 speed fail in their 2007-2009. I wonder if the 6 speeds are also as good. Murphy's law always strikes me. I'll switch and then my trans will fail for other reasons. I just drain and fill mine every 15k miles - vs. the 3x3 which is probably the better way to go.

The OEM stuff is $33 more at $83.60 vs. $50.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006YTQR4E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Acura OEM doesn't seem so bad compared to the 7 liters at $23 a liter for my ZF transmission on my Audi Q7. Couldn't find it cheaper than that.
I have to agree that Acura is one of the cheaper fluids out there compared to others. I always maintained that going with OEM fluid for a critical part like this is preferential given the fact that the increase is offset by the infrequent changes you need to do, in the case of Acura at least.

However it's always good to point out alternatives IMO as not everyone has the time or is close to a dealer as an example. It's just been a pet peeve of mine for others to automatically discount or write off non-oem stuff just because it isn't oem and therefore they think it's inferior in some way without any actual proof.

Guess who owns Havoline, Chevron.

MSDS specs seem within reason to each other. Honda will not release material composition for DW-1 but the Havoline states in the MSDS that it is made from pure synthetic base stocks so it is truly synthetic all the way through.

Flash Point is 338deg F(DW1) vs. 423deg F(Havoline)
Viscosity at 40deg C is 25.09(DW1) vs 30.6(Havoline)
Viscosity at 100deg C is 6.835(DW1) vs 6.0(Havoline)

The 6.0 is the question when it comes to high temps and whether a typical tranny will even see that most of the time. I guess one could hook up a tranny temp gauge and see if they can even get it up that high(possibly towing a heavy load up a mountain). But most likely a chemical engineer could probably answer that and also only answer it with accuracy if they performed some tests on the actual equipment used with the fluid.

Also FWIW, I replaced my tranny fluid on the BMW which had 25k mile old Redline D4 synthetic ATF with the Havoline and it seems to be working as good if not slightly better.

So bottom line: Go with what you're comfortable with and what's available/convenient to you. OEM is preferred IMO but nice to know there are suitable alternatives.
 

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What must be noted is that.. Honda & Acura uses a transmission design that is way different than most GMs and Fords. They call it the "Hondamatic" for a reason. Honda uses a biblical load of Anti Slipping packages and Anti-Foaming packages that wont show in a Spec vs Spec comparison, for this reason ATF in a Honda is pretty much like our SH-AWD fluid, If you have a Honda or Acura use OEM ATF Only that has been pretty much the rule since the dreaded 5 speed transmission issues began.

My personal experience with the ORIGINAL 5 Speed Auto (TL Type-S 2002) using AMSOIL ATF which is ludicrous expensive compared to OEM resulted in 1 Toasted Transmission. The failure? ATF FOAMED within the first miles of use and puked the ATF out of the transmission while driving, Note that that had nothing to do with our transmission issues which is overheating in the 3 gear clutch pack.. ATF Simply foamed because it wasn´t designed to work in our environment, Since that day I have been using OEM only.. I was one of the first to try DW-1 in the 2G TL (I have a Thread in Acurazine for that) and that has been the best oil that I had, Even compared to AMSOIL, DW-1 simply outperform it.
 

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I still own the 2G TL Type S BTW.. It is now running an AV6 Transmission Swap and its been one hell of a ride for these past 14 years.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
There's going to be a lot of variables in failures without any definites IMO without a conclusive and scientific investigation.

Everyone's gotta go with what they believe in. I haven't read any failures directly attributed to the Havoline and it's been out for awhile now.

Also note that Amsoil, just like redline is a boutique brand and as such might not have the resources to carry out any kind of exhaustive real world testing apart from the labs. Also iirc, Amsoil doesn't have any wording on the label indicating a direct DW-1 replacement. I only see the previous Z1 and also it only covers up to Mercon V on the label. Based on this alone would indicate it is not as durable to the Havoline.

With that said, I've traditionally been a huge fan of both Amsoil and Redline fluids and still use them in various cars for different things.

Ironically, I did find some evidence of foaming from the Redline D4 which prompted me to switch to Havoline in the first place for my BMW. I'll be the first to report here if it drives bad or acts up in any way.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I crack up when people who aren't oil engineers, or have had their oil analyzed say this. :laugh:
Care to elaborate?

It's worked fine for all my intended duties at least.

I've had Blackstone Oil analysis done before. If you want to go to a deeper level under 30 microns, I haven't gotten an oil analysis from a place like Caterpillar done though.
 

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FYI: Z1 is what the 2G TL, 1G MDX, 2G MDX used...
DW-1 wasn´t introduced until 2011 so any car below that used Z1.

Also Foaming is directly attributed to ATF.. If the trans just died it could be because of the design flaw but this was FOAMING! That was ATF only issue.
 

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It's worked fine for all my intended duties at least.
This is what I'm talking about. You don't know how well it worked, you just know that it did. At that rate, any oil will work well for a street driven vehicle. The only way you would know an oil didn't work well is after 100,000 miles or after detailed and regular oil analysis.
 
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