This story has happy beginnings and endings, but an unhappy middle. And there's a moral at the end.
In mid-November, I read this thread about the Puron reversing aid system. It sounded like a good product, and I decided to buy it. Based on the thread, I emailed The Worm, and he kindly sent me some wire connectors to ease the install. Meanwhile, a search of the web showed that AutoToys.com had the best price for the Mini3LV unit, albeit by just a couple of bucks over the manufacturer. So I ordered the Mini3LV from the AutoToys website, and paid for my purchase with PayPal, which was their only option for processing credit cards.
A couple of weeks later I received the AutoToys package, but the shipping carton looked like it had been run over by a truck. It was crushed, torn, and haphazardly pasted back together with packing tape. I unpacked the Mini3 and found that one delicate piece was indeed broken, and that two of the three sensors were in the crushed area and could have sustained fatal damage. The UPS driver noted in his delivery record that the box had been damaged in transit by UPS and repaired. He also explained that UPS will only initiate damage-returns on the request of the shipper, not on request of the recipient.
Now the troublesome part begins. I tried to call AutoToys to explain the problem and to request that they initiate the damage-return process. But phone calls yield a message saying to use the website. Emails do too. In fact, the only way to communicate with AutoToys' customer service department is by entering a message into a form on their website. So I used the form to describe my damage-in-transit problem, including all relevant info -- order number, product number, UPS tracking number, etc etc etc.
This produced a canned email from AutoToys saying they'd respond in 3 business days. But they didn't. So after a week, I again used their web site to re-enter my plea. That produced the same canned response as my original request.
Since I wasn't getting anywhere, I decided to up ante by contesting the transaction. My credit card company (CitiBank) had been very responsive and accommodating on the couple of occasions I had done this in the past. But PayPal transactions don't really use my credit card, and PayPal's was neither responsive nor accommodating . Like AutoToys, there is no user-accessible customer service contact process except through a web form. So I wrote a missive to PayPal about the situation, and requested that the transaction be contested until AutoToys stepped up to the plate.
As you might guess, this produced a canned email response with a case number and a 30-day investigation period. Thus no immediate help. But I did copy AutoToys on my PayPal complaint, again through their web form. And again I got the canned reply message. So much for turning up the heat.
But a few days later, I received what seemed to be a breakthrough. I got a different canned message from AutoToys, this one about UPS issues. This message said that I should contact UPS to have the damaged package picked up. I did, but of course was told by UPS that only the sender could make that request.
After a few more days of no news, none of the time, I drove down to my local UPS depot and explained the situation to the familiar guy at the counter. He took pity on me, and initiated the damage-return process himself. He gave me a call tag for the package, and a day or two later my friendly UPS driver took the box away. Of course, I kept filling out those forms at AutoToys' and PayPal's web sites, apprising them of the situation and requesting meaningful response. Which of course I never got.
Since UPS' nifty web-based package tracking service doesn't work for damage-returns, I occasionally bugged the UPS counter guy for an update on my package's progress back to AutoToys New Jersey location. A couple of days ago, I found out that my package had been received at AutoToys nearly a week previously. So I again used the web sites to request some action.
And today, I received two things. First, I received an email from PayPal saying "Our Buyer Complaint Policy does not apply to disputes about the attributes or quality of goods received. As a result, we cannot reverse the transaction or issue a refund". Screw me. While it was nice to receive some kind of communication, it was depressing that Paypal's refusal to take action was based on a complete mis-reading of my problem. They clearly put lots of time into this review.
But I also received a package from UPS containing a shrinkwrapped, whole and unmangled Mini3LV system from Autotoys. It had been sent to me days before, shortly after my return hit their dock. But no one at Autotoys bothered to tell me that they were finally handling my problem. Nevertheless, this was better -- no communication but a satisfactory result.
So now, two and a half months later, I have my slightly less expensive Puron backup system. Hooray.
What's my message in all of this? It is not that internet commerce is a bad idea. On the contrary, for the past 3-4 years, at least 70% of my wife's and my purchases have been made over the internet. On the very few occasions on which we have had problems, they were minor and were easily and promptly solved by concerned sellers.
It also is not that Paypal is a bad business. Again, both my wife and I have used Paypal frequently over the past 18 months for both purchases and sales, all without problems. And 'without problems' is the key -- service at PayPal seem to be really different when there are problems. And clearly, our leverage with Paypal as good, long-standing customers who are having a problem with a merchant, and PayPal's willingness to take useful and timely (read 'any') action is orders of magnitude poorer than that of our credit card company. (Kudos to CitiBank. Kudzu to PayPal.)
And I am not convinced that AutoToys is a bad business. After all, they did faithfully send me my original order, and its damage in transit was not their fault. They also faithfully and promptly sent me a replacement once they received my damaged return. But I am appalled that they took no noticeable action at all in response to my problem, and clearly impeded my ability to fix it myself.
So I guess my point is to be warned. Don't rely on autotoys.com to handle -- or even to assist you in handling yourself -- any problems with any transaction.
And if you have any concerns about redress when you're having problems with a merchant, don't use PayPal for payment processing. Stick with your credit card company.
So there. Thanks for listening!
--Marne
In mid-November, I read this thread about the Puron reversing aid system. It sounded like a good product, and I decided to buy it. Based on the thread, I emailed The Worm, and he kindly sent me some wire connectors to ease the install. Meanwhile, a search of the web showed that AutoToys.com had the best price for the Mini3LV unit, albeit by just a couple of bucks over the manufacturer. So I ordered the Mini3LV from the AutoToys website, and paid for my purchase with PayPal, which was their only option for processing credit cards.
A couple of weeks later I received the AutoToys package, but the shipping carton looked like it had been run over by a truck. It was crushed, torn, and haphazardly pasted back together with packing tape. I unpacked the Mini3 and found that one delicate piece was indeed broken, and that two of the three sensors were in the crushed area and could have sustained fatal damage. The UPS driver noted in his delivery record that the box had been damaged in transit by UPS and repaired. He also explained that UPS will only initiate damage-returns on the request of the shipper, not on request of the recipient.
Now the troublesome part begins. I tried to call AutoToys to explain the problem and to request that they initiate the damage-return process. But phone calls yield a message saying to use the website. Emails do too. In fact, the only way to communicate with AutoToys' customer service department is by entering a message into a form on their website. So I used the form to describe my damage-in-transit problem, including all relevant info -- order number, product number, UPS tracking number, etc etc etc.
This produced a canned email from AutoToys saying they'd respond in 3 business days. But they didn't. So after a week, I again used their web site to re-enter my plea. That produced the same canned response as my original request.
Since I wasn't getting anywhere, I decided to up ante by contesting the transaction. My credit card company (CitiBank) had been very responsive and accommodating on the couple of occasions I had done this in the past. But PayPal transactions don't really use my credit card, and PayPal's was neither responsive nor accommodating . Like AutoToys, there is no user-accessible customer service contact process except through a web form. So I wrote a missive to PayPal about the situation, and requested that the transaction be contested until AutoToys stepped up to the plate.
As you might guess, this produced a canned email response with a case number and a 30-day investigation period. Thus no immediate help. But I did copy AutoToys on my PayPal complaint, again through their web form. And again I got the canned reply message. So much for turning up the heat.
But a few days later, I received what seemed to be a breakthrough. I got a different canned message from AutoToys, this one about UPS issues. This message said that I should contact UPS to have the damaged package picked up. I did, but of course was told by UPS that only the sender could make that request.
After a few more days of no news, none of the time, I drove down to my local UPS depot and explained the situation to the familiar guy at the counter. He took pity on me, and initiated the damage-return process himself. He gave me a call tag for the package, and a day or two later my friendly UPS driver took the box away. Of course, I kept filling out those forms at AutoToys' and PayPal's web sites, apprising them of the situation and requesting meaningful response. Which of course I never got.
Since UPS' nifty web-based package tracking service doesn't work for damage-returns, I occasionally bugged the UPS counter guy for an update on my package's progress back to AutoToys New Jersey location. A couple of days ago, I found out that my package had been received at AutoToys nearly a week previously. So I again used the web sites to request some action.
And today, I received two things. First, I received an email from PayPal saying "Our Buyer Complaint Policy does not apply to disputes about the attributes or quality of goods received. As a result, we cannot reverse the transaction or issue a refund". Screw me. While it was nice to receive some kind of communication, it was depressing that Paypal's refusal to take action was based on a complete mis-reading of my problem. They clearly put lots of time into this review.
But I also received a package from UPS containing a shrinkwrapped, whole and unmangled Mini3LV system from Autotoys. It had been sent to me days before, shortly after my return hit their dock. But no one at Autotoys bothered to tell me that they were finally handling my problem. Nevertheless, this was better -- no communication but a satisfactory result.
So now, two and a half months later, I have my slightly less expensive Puron backup system. Hooray.
What's my message in all of this? It is not that internet commerce is a bad idea. On the contrary, for the past 3-4 years, at least 70% of my wife's and my purchases have been made over the internet. On the very few occasions on which we have had problems, they were minor and were easily and promptly solved by concerned sellers.
It also is not that Paypal is a bad business. Again, both my wife and I have used Paypal frequently over the past 18 months for both purchases and sales, all without problems. And 'without problems' is the key -- service at PayPal seem to be really different when there are problems. And clearly, our leverage with Paypal as good, long-standing customers who are having a problem with a merchant, and PayPal's willingness to take useful and timely (read 'any') action is orders of magnitude poorer than that of our credit card company. (Kudos to CitiBank. Kudzu to PayPal.)
And I am not convinced that AutoToys is a bad business. After all, they did faithfully send me my original order, and its damage in transit was not their fault. They also faithfully and promptly sent me a replacement once they received my damaged return. But I am appalled that they took no noticeable action at all in response to my problem, and clearly impeded my ability to fix it myself.
So I guess my point is to be warned. Don't rely on autotoys.com to handle -- or even to assist you in handling yourself -- any problems with any transaction.
And if you have any concerns about redress when you're having problems with a merchant, don't use PayPal for payment processing. Stick with your credit card company.
So there. Thanks for listening!
--Marne
. If you're interested in my personal stuff, send me a PM and I'll give you my user ID).
