Tire Nitrogen Problems - Acura MDX Forum : Acura MDX SUV Forums
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011 Thread Starter
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Thumbs down Tire Nitrogen Problems

I have just in installed nitrogen in my tires. I am now having problems with the pressure staying at the set pressure that was put in (35.lbs/ 241.kpa.). The dealer at the tire shop says that the pressure should stay at 35 lbs even when the tires are driven on the hwy. My problem is when driving around the city or hwy. the pressure go's up. I have talked with the dealer and he has redone the nitrogen twice now with know changes. The tpms have be recalibrated.

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011
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Your tire pressure will always rise when driving even if you are using nitrogen. It will be less of an increace than with air, but it will go up. Your tires heat up due to friction with the road, and your wheels heat up from your brakes. Heat makes pressure go up, you cannot defy the laws of physics.

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011
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Don is correct. Nitrogen-filled tires will increase in pressure due to the heat generated from driving, as well as due to heat if they sit out in the sun, just like air-filled tires.

The benefit of nitrogen-filled tires is not that they are immune to this phenomenon, but rather, that they lose pressure due to gas escaping (by permeating the rubber) more slowly than tires filled with air. Air-filled tires lose 1/2 to 1 psi per month from permeation; nitrogen-filled tires lose about one-third less pressure than that (ref). Since pressure varies with temperature, it goes up when the weather gets warmer and down when it cools off. Given that you still need to check the pressure in your tires every so often (and you'll need to add air/nitrogen during times of year when the weather gets colder), there is no significant benefit to using nitrogen in your tires (ref).

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011
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Don is correct. Nitrogen-filled tires will increase in pressure due to the heat generated from driving, as well as due to heat if they sit out in the sun, just like air-filled tires.

The benefit of nitrogen-filled tires is not that they are immune to this phenomenon, but rather, that they lose pressure due to gas escaping (by permeating the rubber) more slowly than tires filled with air. Air-filled tires lose 1/2 to 1 psi per month from permeation; nitrogen-filled tires lose about one-third less pressure than that (ref). Since pressure varies with temperature, it goes up when the weather gets warmer and down when it cools off. Given that you still need to check the pressure in your tires every so often (and you'll need to add air/nitrogen during times of year when the weather gets colder), there is no significant benefit to using nitrogen in your tires (ref).
Just what brand of tire do you use that looses that much pressure.

With modern tires I usually go many months before I have to add air to the tires.

George

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011 Thread Starter
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Tires Nitrogen Problems

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Just what brand of tire do you use that looses that much pressure.

With modern tires I usually go many months before I have to add air to the tires.

George
The issue is not the brand of tires that i am using. They are a high end tire.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011
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Just what brand of tire do you use that looses that much pressure.

With modern tires I usually go many months before I have to add air to the tires.

George
I agree that they should not be losing that much air. That's why ires are made with an inner liner.

From Wiki

"Inner liner
The inner liner is an extruded halobutyl rubber sheet compounded with additives that result in low air permeability. The inner liner assures that the tire will hold high-pressure air inside, without the air gradually diffusing through the rubber structure."


The inner liner has been used in tire manufacturing for decades.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-19-2011 Thread Starter
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Tires nitrogen problems

Please note i am not losing prussure its going UP/
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-20-2011
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The "problem" is the dealer has no idea what he is talking about. Sounds perfectly normal to me.

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-20-2011
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Please note i am not losing prussure its going UP/
UP>>>are you sure they filled it with nitrogen and not HELIUM?
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The issue is not the brand of tires that i am using. They are a high end tire.
I would say that is the exact issue. The issue is not the brand, but the substance of the tire.

Tires should not be loosing that much air in that short of a period.

Or it could be the mounting.

Oh yes, please note I was not responding to your rising tire pressure, I was responding to the comment on losing pressure posted by nsxtasy.

George

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Actually, I have found that the information given in the article is spot on. I have used multiple sets of tires from multiple brands on multiple sets of wheels on multiple vehicles, and all have lost 1/2 to 1 psi of pressure per month. However, the difference is not usually noticeable because, as I noted above, the difference due to air loss through permeation is not as significant as the difference due to temperature changes.

For example, when I go from March to July (four months), typical outside daytime temperatures here go from around 40F to around 80F. Without adding or releasing any air, that will cause the pressure in the tires on the car to go up by 4 psi (rough estimate, again per the Tire Rack). Loss of air due to permeation will cause the pressure to go down by 2-4 psi over the same period. So overall, the pressure isn't going down at all; you may erroneously think that there is no permeation, but what you're actually seeing is air loss due to permeation being offset by pressure increase due to temperature change.

In the fall, going from July to November, temperature goes from 80F back down to around 40F, so the pressure goes down by about 4 psi due to the temperature difference, plus another 2-4 psi due to permeation. So the tires on the car lose 6-8 psi, and you need to add air to them to compensate. You may think it's only due to the difference in temperature, but there's a permeation difference on top of that. Of course, this is happening over the course of four months, and with frequent checking, I'm usually only adding 1 psi at a time; if I didn't know better, I might not realize how much air I'm adding to the tires over a period of time. Those whose climate is pretty moderate year round, where temperatures don't vary all that much, may not realize that they're adding 1-2 psi once every couple of months. Or may not have an accurate tire pressure gauge. Or may not be checking their tires at all.

It's also possible that someone else is putting air in your tires and you don't know about it. I know a lot of dealers/mechanics check your tires when you go for service, even if it's just an oil change. I know this because I've checked tires when the car is back from service, noticed differences, and asked about it.

As you can see, the difference due to temperature is greater than the difference due to permeation, so the latter isn't readily apparent. The reason I know that permeation takes place and that 2-4 psi difference is accurate is because I'm switching between summer and winter tires at roughly the same temperature each year, and I always check the pressure when I put the tires back on the car. The summer tires typically lose 2-3 psi during the 3-4 months that they are off the car, and the winter tires typically lose 4-6 psi during the 8-9 months that they are off the car.

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Tires should not be loosing that much air in that short of a period.
I would bet that if you kept precise track of the pressure in your tires, and how much air you were adding to them, over an extended period of time, and kept track of adjustments due to temperature, you would find that your tires are losing the same 1/2 to 1 psi per month aside from temperature changes. If you don't believe this, try it - not just for a month, but over the course of a year or more. Use an accurate tire gauge, check your pressures cold (when the car has been sitting out of the sun at the temperature at which it will be used), and keep track of the pressures and temperatures, and how much air you (or anyone else) add or release. You'll see it for yourself.

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you guys know that our "air" in the environment that we breathe contains roughly 80% Nitrogen and 20% oxygen as is.

Is filling tires with 100% nitrogen more a marketing scheme for tire folks to make money....??? Yes the nitrogen filled tires may leak less air, but really is it justifiable?

I'll take 80% Nitrogen, thank you.

just a thought...
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Is filling tires with 100% nitrogen more a marketing scheme for tire folks to make money....???
Yes.

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Yes the nitrogen filled tires may leak less air, but really is it justifiable?
No.

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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 07-20-2011 Thread Starter
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This is a reply that was send to me from Tire Rack.com
Clearing the Air About Nitrogen Tire Inflation


One of a tire's primary tasks is to carry the weight of the vehicle. But anyone whoís ever had a flat tire knows that the tire doesn't really carry the load...the inflation pressure inside it does! Using the correct inflation pressure not only provides the appropriate load capacity, it also enhances the tire's performance, durability and contribution to vehicle fuel economy.

Tires are typically inflated with air thatís a combination of roughly 78% nitrogen (N2), 21% oxygen (O2) and 1% miscellaneous gases. And since all gasses expand when heated and contract when cooled, tire inflation pressures rise and fall with changes in temperature by about one psi (pound per square inch) for every 10į Fahrenheit change in temperature. This is one of the reasons itís recommended that tire pressures be checked early in the morning before ambient temperatures, the sun's radiant heat, or the heat generated by driving causes the tire pressure to rise.

And while tires appear solid, if you could see their microscopic structure you would find that rubber looks a bit like strands of cooked spaghetti stuck together. These molecular strands continuously stretch to and from their relaxed state every time the tire rolls and conspire to allow some of the gas to escape through the microscopic spaces between the rubber molecules (called permeation or diffusion). It's been estimated that up to one psi of pressure may escape each month a tire is in service.

Fortunately compressed air is often available at gas stations, tire stores and auto repair shops. Sometimes itís free, while other times itís only available from coin-operated compressors. Unfortunately the compressed air often provided contains varying degrees of moisture depending on relative humidity and the compressor systemís ability to dry the air by removing moisture.

So what can we do to help maintain more constant tire pressures? We could change what we inflate our tires with.

Pure nitrogen has been used to inflate critical tire applications for years, primarily because it doesn't support moisture or combustion. These include racing tires (IndyCar, Formula 1, NASCAR), aircraft tires (commercial and military) and heavy-duty equipment tires (earthmovers and mining equipment). The challenge facing nitrogen inflation hasn't been its application, it's been its method of supply and cost.

Nitrogen molecules have a more difficult time escaping through the microscopic spaces that exist between a tire's rubber molecules. Nitrogen is a "slow" inactive gas labeled as an inert gas due to its nonreactive nature with many materials. Oxygen on the other hand is a "fast" active gas that reacts with many materials called "oxidation." Additionally nitrogen is a dry gas that doesn't support moisture while oxygen combined with hydrogen makes water (H2O).

What are the effects of using pure nitrogen to inflate tires?

Nitrogen is a gas and is still affected by changes in ambient temperature (about one psi for every 10į Fahrenheit). Nitrogen filled tires will require pressure be added during the fall/winter months as ambient temperatures and tire pressures drop. Nitrogen is good but can't change the laws of physics.
Nitrogen reduces the loss of tire pressure due to permeation through rubber over time by about 1/3. This helps maintain the vehicle's required tire pressures a little longer, but doesnít eliminate the need for monthly tire pressure checks. This is good for people who donít maintain their vehicles well.
Nitrogen is non-corrosive and will reduce oxidation and rust due to the absence of oxygen and moisture. This will help minimize wheel corrosion to promote better bead sealing. Tires that are used routinely will be replaced long before any life benefit would be received by using Nitrogen. This is most beneficial for drivers who drive their vehicles infrequently (car collectors, track drivers, snow tire users, motor home owners, etc).
Nitrogen is a dry gas and will not support moisture that could contribute to corrosion of the tireís steel components (bead, sidewall reinforcement and belts) due to the absence of moisture over extended periods of time. However itís important to remember that atmospheric pressure is constantly pushing oxygen and moisture into the rubber from the outside of the tire. This is especially good for low mileage drivers who don't wear out their tires quickly or those that run average annual mileages but use long wearing radial (60K and 80K warranted) tires.
Nitrogen assures more consistent pressure increases due to increases in operating temperatures in a racing environment because of the absence of moisture. This is especially good for participants in track days, high-performance drivers education schools and road racing.
Drivers should use standard air if pressure adjustments are required when a local source of nitrogen canít be found during a trip. While this reduces the benefit of higher nitrogen content, it is far better than running the tires underinflated in search of a source. Often the original nitrogen provider will refill the tires for free or a nominal cost when the driver returns to his hometown.
Several service equipment manufacturers have developed small, on-site nitrogen generator systems that use the selective permeation principle to separate oxygen and moisture from the shopís compressed air lines to capture nitrogen. The key component is a membrane that separates the gasses. Each module contains hollow fibers that allow the oxygen and water vapor to be selectively removed, resulting in a source of nearly pure nitrogen that is kept in a separate storage tank until it is used to inflate tires.

The nitrogen generator, storage tank and filling system arenít free and the dealer is entitled to some return on his investment. Itís time-consuming for a technician to bleed air from the tires (sometimes requiring several purges during the initial inflation) to achieve the desired nitrogen purity, however some of the latest equipment automatically goes through several purge cycles without requiring the technicianís participation.

While inflating tires with nitrogen never results in 100% purity, most nitrogen service equipment providers advise that reaching at least a 93% to 95% purity is necessary to receive the desired benefits. This ratio is normally achieved by initially purging the tires of existing air (down to just a few psi) and then refilling them with nitrogen. The purge/fill cycle is often repeated to achieve the desired level of nitrogen purity.

NOTE: Tires should never be subjected to a vacuum in an effort to eliminate the oxygen. Distorting the tire as shown in the accompanying picture can be as detrimental to the internal structure of the tire as running over potholes and road hazards.




So what should drivers do?

Overall, inflating tires with nitrogen won't hurt them and may provide some minimal benefits.

Is it worth it? If you go someplace that provides free nitrogen with new tires, why not? Additionally weíve seen some service providers offering reasonable prices of about $5 per tire (including periodic adjustments for the life of the tire) to a less reasonable $10 per tire (with additional costs for subsequent pressure adjustments) or more as part of a service contract, which we believe exceeds the value of nitrogenís benefit.

Rather than pay extra for nitrogen, most drivers would be better off buying an accurate tire pressure gauge and checking and adjusting their tire pressures regularly.

Thanks again
Todd
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